To my pen, forgive me for typing..: Islamic Schooling: 1

Thursday, April 26, 2007

Islamic Schooling: 1

PART 1: The Teachers

Would you go to a unqualified doctor to treat your illness? I hope not. Our health and bodies are so important that we only trust the best in dealing with them. So are minds any different? Would you send your children to an unqualified teacher?

I have very high expectations when it comes to education - which shouldn't be surprising considering the field I'm in...

I have a student who blames everything and her dead fish on her previous Islamic school education. And the stories she tells me boggle the mind. She confesses everything to me. But I'm not surprised. No, I'm not surprised at all by her stories. I did enough volunteer work at an Islamic school to know what happens behind the scenes. So what gives me, Ms.-all-for-public-education-as-the-best, the right to judge? Well, I've volunteered in Islamic schools as a teacher's assistant, a secretary, and a teacher. I've seen it all. I've also heard it all too. I have enough cousins who my aunts and uncles thought "why not," why not try that system? Thank goodness my family has very high expectations of education too (my brother's situation is a story of its own) - all my cousins were yanked out of those schools when my aunts and uncles came to realize that those teachers aren't teachers - they're babysitters.

The unprofessionalism in these places is scary. And I don't mean to paint a bad picture of these schools but the honest truth is that when you pay big bucks for private education and you don't receive the best of the best in terms of who your teacher is, then, well then there's a problem. I can bet you will NOT find a single Islamic school in Ontario which has a full staff of qualified teachers. And I'm only talking about Ontario here because I can't speak for other places that I don't know.

Last year around this time I was starting to panic because I was scared that as a new graduate I wouldn't be able to find a job right away. Everyone told me not to worry and that if I couldn't find what I wanted, I could always teach in an Islamic school. Inside however, I knew I couldn't, I knew I couldn't "lower" myself to those standards (yes, I know that sounds snotty but it's true). I know for a fact that Islamic schools will hire everyone and anyone. They're that desperate for teachers that they take people who never have had any experience before. They hire people on the spot. They hire people who didn't study education in university. They hire people who didn't go to university.

And I'm glad I didn't go in that direction. Because today, one of my friends who began working in an Islamic school this year, quit. I guess there's only so much you can take. She's a good girl. She did well in university and did the same Concurrent Ed. program I did at York. She wanted to teach at an Islamic school because she wanted to work in an Islamic setting - understandable for some, yes. But I knew she wouldn't last. You can't pair someone who has an intense drive and motivation to be the best you can be with people who look for the easy way to live life. She had passion. Her colleagues didn't.

I'm sorry, but my biggest pet peeve is people who don't regard education as something serious. I've always been really serious about school but now on the other side of the desk, I'm even more serious about my feelings regarding the process. When you're responsible for other people's learning, it isn't a game.

Islamic schools are in a crisis and it isn't the students' fault - it's the teachers. They don't have good ones. It's as simple as that.

Stay tuned for ...
PART 2: The Schools
& PART 3: The Students ... coming soon to a blog near you.

P.S. Yes, there are some good qualified teachers out there teaching in Islamic schools, but the majority don't know what the hell they're doing. My dad's cousin is one of the certified ones. And she's great. Can't say much for the people she works with though. I've seen them in action.

47 Comments:

At 11:30 p.m., 'liya said…

Note: Please keep comments related to PART 1. This topic can go in so many directions that I wanted this post to just be about the subject of teachers.

And you don't have to be Muslim to share your opinion. It's about the quality of a teacher, which yes, the public system could use improvement in some too - but in this system we all come with education under our belt. So students actually do learn.

And oh yeah, this post was inspired by my anonymous commentor who questioned why I choose to teach in the Public system (which I think is by far the best) So I hope he/she reads this.

Just think about it. What type of school and what type of teacher do you want for your child?

That's all :)
At 12:25 a.m., AKA said…

To think that anonymous commenter actually set off a positive debate...

I've always been interested in learning more about the Islamic school in Ontario. We considered sending my younger sister to one because we wanted her to get a good Islamic background. But some of the stories we heard got the family to decide to send her to public school. And Liya you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the potential for a good school is there, but, as you said, there is no passion for it. Our elders are happy as long theyre satisfied that the environment is Islamic but very little about the quality of education is paid attention to. Kids grow a fondness for learning from their teachers and if that eagerness to learn isn't present, then these students will have a harder time excelling in post-secondary studies. Which completely undermines the purpose of an Islamic school - to have children grow up to have a sound Islamic background that they can use to contribute to soceity and increase Islamic awareness in a postive way.

What do you think of the opinion that there shouldn't be religious schools at all? That all children should be forced to only go to public school with option religion-focused schooling after school or on weekends?
At 12:44 a.m., FU said…

the teacher threw a quran at me and i never went back.

i'd rather have my parents teach me.
At 6:54 a.m., Anonymous said…

i tried islamic school for a year and couldn't stand it to make more friends who i could go to relgiious events with because the public schools in my area didnt have many muslims. but the teachers are useless. some can't even speak english properly! then i switched and went to public and had one of the bestest teachers ever who i'll never eveer forget. what a difference man.

and no im not the person who left that comment. i'm just someone who doesn't want to share my name
At 6:55 a.m., Anonymous said…

heh my comment looks like i can't even type english properly

it's 6:am what do u expect!!!!!
At 9:09 a.m., Nikki Neurotic said…

The problem with private school's is that they do not have to follow the same vigorous guidelines that public school's do. People are not looking at test scores or anything like that, as they do public school's. The students aren't always under that certain pressure that public school kids are under to perform on a certain level because of funding issues or because of a threat that the state will go in and dismantle certain programs and create other programs which may or may not work.

When I was just starting my "formal" education (first grade), my parents thought that they would do right by me and send me to a private school. It wasn't affiliated with any church or anything like that. That was probably the worst mistake they could have made as the school did not bother to teach me anything. I couldn't read, I couldn't do math, etc. they just had a philosophy that students learn in their own time and that it wasn't something to worry about. My parents took me out of that school and put me in public. I'm still crappy with math (LOL!) but as for the reading...after one year of remedial reading I started reading well above my grade level and, even better, discovered that I loved to read.
At 9:17 a.m., Nauman said…

Though I'm not necessarily pro for Islamic schools, I think it's a bit unfair that you've presumed that all Islamic schools hire unqualified teachers. Maybe it's just the ones here that you've come across here in Toronto.

It should be noted that Olive Grove Public School, which opened in 2006 in Mississauga, hires teachers who have completed their BEd's and are qualified teachers. Their standards are relatively high as well and they've received a lot of acclaim within their short period. To slam all Islamic schools as hiring 'unqualified teachers' is unfair and a disservice to those who work in fine institutions like that and discredits the work that they put in.

You also fail to mention that some other private institutions such as Jewish Montessori schools hire 'unqualified teachers' as well. If you're going to slam Islamic schools, you might as well rail against other educational institutions that have similar hiring practices.

Islamic schools do not get anywhere close to the same funding that public schools do. Public schools receive huge budgets to work with paid by Canadian taxpayers while Islamic schools don't get that kind of funding and are perpetually reliant on tuition fees and bank loans. True, they're private institutions and may not be entitled to public funding but is it fair to these schools that they're forced to scrape through and skimp on the budget just because they may not want to teach public-school doctrines such as homosexuality for which their religions do not condone?
At 10:09 a.m., Anonymous said…

I don’t think most people send their children to an Islamic school because they feel they will get a superior education to public schools. They are more worried about the things that are being taught in the public system and the environment that exists.

Also the topic of who is “qualified” to teach in an Islamic school should also be addressed. I can tell you one thing with certainty, I would never want a Muslim teacher that flaunts having a boyfriend on her blog to be teaching my kids. In my mind you are not qualified to be teaching in an Islamic school regardless of how much passion for teaching you may have and how many degrees you hold. When you are a teacher you are a role model for the kids and you are not a person that I would want my daughter to emulate. So at the end of the day, as much as you don’t want to lower yourself and teach in an Islamic school, If Islamic schools had a choice they probably would not want to lower themselves and have you teach in their school either.
At 11:07 a.m., FU said…

wow.. you have some mean bitches reading ur blog.. haha.

i want some mean bitches to read my blog too..
At 12:31 p.m., mezba said…

The only Islamic school I know in Toronto that is somewhat good is the Nugget Islamic Foundation - that's because they have a reputation of actually turning away students who misbehave, as there are many in line, and hire only professional teachers. Even they have some problems.

For example they will sometimes say in Jummah about how unIslamic the public school system is and how to "save" our children we MUST send them to an Islamic school. I mean, what rubbish?

Every other Muslim school I have seen is horrible. The administrators even don't pay fees on time and are unIslamic in every way.

I do NOT agree with Islamic schools at all. Maybe they can have a Sunday school type system to teach some religion but not full fledged 'Islamic' schools.
At 12:54 p.m., mezba said…

One of the ransoms that prisoners of the battle of Badr paid to the Muslims for their freedom was teaching some Muslim kids how to read and write. Presumably those Companions of the Prophet weren't worried that their children was being taught by an 'infidel'.

When I go to a doctor all I care is that he is a good and professional doctor. I don't really care if he has a girlfriend, 10 wives or has a beard.

Similarly I want my teacher to teach the subject professionally and well.
At 3:01 p.m., Anonymous said…

Like I said, people don't just send their kids to islamic schools to learn how to read and write. They want them to learn islamic conduct and behavious. I sure as hell would care if my kids are going to an islamic and being taught by a teacher who isn't living her life in an islamic way.

As for your doctor argument it hold no weight was so ever. A 10 minute interaction with a doctor who may have 10 wives may have no effect on you or your kids. But if you are seeing him/her everyday under the banner of Islam and if the doc is in constant contact with your kids in a position to influence how they think you better care.
At 4:54 p.m., Anonymous said…

Toronto is NOT Ontario.

The students of Ottawa Islamic School, under the guidance of a professional staff of Muslim teachers, consistently rank among the top students in Ottawa. They dominate the Ottawa Regional Science Fair every year. They share some of the best writing for our local Muslim newspaper. And they recite Quran beautifully, maintain the highest standards of ethics, and protect themselves from unlawful interaction.

And there are other Islamic schools within Ontario but outside Toronto that have consistently scored very high on standardized provincial exams. I can provide you the stats if you like.

But ultimately, parents send their children to Islamic schools not because of the standards of the secular education, but because of the environment. Or more likely, to keep them away from the environment of public schools.

Still, that doesn't mean we should excuse them for poor teaching. I just think that there are blanket statements being made here that only reflect a portion of the efforts of our Muslim teachers; some of them are doing outstanding work.

I've often considered dropping my career to pursue a degree in Education Reform, because these teachers and institutions clearly need our help. They've heard enough criticism already.

(Nauman sent me here.)
At 5:21 p.m., Anonymous said…

My cousin went to an Islamic school and got pulled out - my uncle is a retired teacher and was going through his work one night and noticed the teacher was marking blatantly wrong answers - RIGHT.

My brother wants his kids to have a good islamic foundation (since he is an aalim) and he wants to make sure that his secular education is not compromised as well. He took my nephew out of a different islamic school simply because none of those aspects were being fulfilled completely.
However, my nephew now goes to a different school with a whole Islamic background and he is doing quite well there - in both the secular and islamic education :) So my brother is quite pleased.

My brother in laws sister is the English HOD of an Islamic high school for girls, she's very qualified and she's a brilliant teacher - she works hard and you kind of remind me of her.

However, most people I know went to a regular school and after school went to Madrasah and I think that's the best way. I did that and in a way, both your secular and your islamic education does not get compromised as they are both given full attention on their own time.

To Anonymous: I went to a privae Catholic-based school as there was no islamic school in my area and because public schools in my area did not ACCEPT me because I'm Indian South African (it was Apartheid - I live in South Africa) and the only school that accepted Indian kids without prejudice were the catholic schools.
They NEVER imposed Christianity on us and they NEVER made us do religiously themed classes with them. We were always excused (And boy were we happy) from those sort of situations.
Islamic schools and role models - LOL...that's hilarious because I was not in an islamic school and I know of kids that are in brilliant islamic schools but behave worse than kids that went to regular high schools- it doesn't matter where they school - it depends on the parent to teach them religious values and morals - you can't expect the teacher to be the only ONE to teach that - that's ridiculous! Islamic Education begins at home! Not in school! From birth the Azaan is read in the ear, as soon as a child can talk, they should read their kalimah's....you can't expect a teacher to be the only ones to teach about religious values.
At 6:34 p.m., Anonymous said…

Well Liya, you already know my situation but I'll share it with everyone here. I taught in an Islamic school (in the GTA for a year) and then had to leave. I had to leave because the environment didn't fit my beliefs about education which is quite similar to your argument in this blog. It's funny that Anonymous here thinks that teachers in Islamic schools teach with squeaky clean records. If he/she were to teach in one of these schools (especially the one I taught in which is very well-known) they would see much differently. So, I believe you when you say your student tells you surprising stories. I have many myself. Email me and I'll give you all the gory details :P

As for Olive Grove, I have a friend there who is NOT certified so, I'm ready to side with you on your bet that there isn't a single Islamic school in Ontario that has a fully qualified staff. If that were an actual bet, I think we'd come into a great deal of money.
Now hold that thought, silly me, as a Muslim teacher in a CHRISTIAN school NOW, I should know better that gambling is haraam! Haha, and with that statement out in the open, your Anonymous commenter can direct his or her hate to me!

And in conclusion to this very long comment which I do apologize for, I just want to say that my experience in the tiny Christian school I teach in is a lot nicer, safer, friendlier, and accepting than the experience I had as a very young teacher at the Islamic school that hired me without even calling my references.

- Bilqis
At 8:00 p.m., Anonymous said…

i like your doctor argument! i neva thought of it in that way and it makes sense! i have a while to go before marriage and kids but i would want the best in ed for my kids for sure why settle for second or third best when this country offers first best? i think a lot of immigrant families aren't aware of how poor islamic skools are by way of their standards. if they new they might even find out that these skools are way behind those from motherland!
At 8:37 p.m., 'liya said…

Great discussion! I like some of the questions and comments that came up.

I have to go call V because I think he just got home from his exam, then I'll come back and act all teacherish and reply to everyone - oops, hope Anonymous doesn't think I'm "flaunting" my relationship with V again! From someone who "flaunts," she sure seems to be interested in reading about my "flaunting" :D

(sorry I haven't heard the word 'flaunt' in a while so I need to make wide use of it lol)
At 1:24 a.m., Anonymous said…

actually my aunt taught at an Islamic school in Mississuaga and left after a year. I could share some of the stories sometime. Basically from what she told me I would agree with whatever you say here. I just don't see how just because you went to an Islamic school you are better off. Some of the biggest sluts/playboys I know have gone to Islamic schools - and not just here - from Saudi Arabia and whatever.

It matters not an iota if your school is Islamic - but your home environment.
At 12:44 p.m., 'liya said…

Aka: I agree that the potential for a good school is there, but only when the administration actually put a child’s learning first – to do that, you need to offer good quality education which can only come from certified teachers who know how to teach. When you hire people who know nothing about education and teaching, how can we give children the skills they need for success? I know people who can’t get into the field they want, or don’t know what to do with themselves after college, who think well why not teach in an Islamic school, they’ll take me – and that’s the problem – most parents aren’t aware that they’re putting in so much money for a learning environment that has no drive for success. What message are we giving our children then?

I personally DO feel that there shouldn’t be ANY religious based schools. Children do have the option of learning religion after school or the weekend, which is what my sisters and I did all throughout our childhood – we turned out fine and know just as much or even more, than my brother who does attend an Islamic school. The reason for the being, some of the schools I’ve come across don’t even teach religion properly - now what then is the point?

Fu: "threw a Quran" - um.. That doesn't sound very Islamic... Please please please tell me this wasn't in Canada.

Anonymous: I hope you did end up making some Muslim friends in public school who you were able to go to religious events with, it’s important to have friends who share the same religion with you and it’s important to have friends who don’t. Variety is the key to life and if you’re strong in your faith that should never be a problem.

Most of the teachers I've come across are what you say "useless." It's not just that some can't speak English, but when you hire someone to teach French and THAT person can't speak English, think about the poor confused children! My brother didn't learn any French that year... yet he got an A+ ? Yes, something is very very wrong with a system like that. It sets children up for a rude smack in the face when they do enter the real world.

Anonymous: It's not 6:00 a.m. it's 6:55 at the time of your comment, but that's okay, I excuse you because this is my blog and you can write using the worst English possible, I don't care! Now if this was my classroom... hehe :D

Silverneurotic: You’re very right that private schools operate quite differently than public schools and that students aren’t under the same pressure to do well – but I found out another reason for this as well – it’s because the teachers don’t have the same marking standards as they do in public schools. 6 of my cousins were pulled from 3 different Islamic schools here because they were doing TOO well. They were getting A+s in everything. Now that they’re in the public system and teachers are grading appropriately, they can see that they’re not A+ students and that they actually have to work hard to get a good grade. The reason that teachers were grading so easily? – to make parents happy. Happy parents = no complaints = no worries for the schools.

My parents also thought that it would be nice to send me to a private school to begin my education – only for me it was in JK and it was to a Montessori school. However, when they saw that I wasn’t learning much they pulled me out and put me into the public system too. Of course I remember nothing of this except that my mom likes to remind me that I cried everyday before going to school because I hated the teacher.

And about math, well, I also suck at it, don’t worry, I think more than half the world does :D

Nauman: I’m talking about the schools that I know of, have been inside, know students from, know people who work at, and have volunteered at – I am not talking about EVERY single Islamic school. Maybe I should have made that more clear. My post is not about Jewish Montessori schools. I know absolutely nothing about how Jewish schools are run so it would be very unfair for me to talk about them. Montessori schools are also very different from regular schools and this post has nothing to do with them – that could be a subject of its own. If I had all day I’d talk about funding and how I think it’s unfair that Catholic schools are funded while other religious institutions are not. I don’t think any religious school should be funded by the government and that’s just my own opinion which I’m not asking anyone to share.

I thought I made it clear that I’m only talking about teachers. This topic can go in so many directions which is why I asked specifically for comments to be about the quality of teachers that one gets in Islamic schools. The reason I wrote this post was because I was very disturbed by what my friend (the one I mention who quit), has told me. You know how strongly I feel about good quality education and the standards I hold. I just feel that it’s horrible that children are being subjected to people who don’t know what they’re doing in the classroom, people who were never taught how to have control of children, people who aren’t familiar with current teaching practices and the theories behind them, and in some cases, basically people who seem to be more of babysitters than teachers.

Anonymous: This is where we're very very different. For you, personal blog writing defines a person's 'religiousness' and teaching capabilities related to religious education. For me, the education you bring with you to the job defines the quality of education you give to students. If you don't see the difference that's okay.

I was always under the impression that daughters emulated their mothers, not their teachers. I definitely don’t act like any of the teachers I had, but I am very much like my mom, my sisters, and the women in my family in general. My morals and values come from what my parents taught me at home. Does that mean that your daughter will be as interested in my ‘bad’ life as you are? I don't mean that to be rude, but you visit my blog a lot (and twice in the last 5 hours), so I hope you set a good example for your daughter because she's only going to be interested in the exact same things that mom is – that’s just how girls are.

Fu: You can have the "mean bitches" please! I don't want them, yet they seem to be obsessed with my life and won't leave me alone. See above!

Mezba: I too, can’t think of a worse argument than to “save our children we MUST send them to Islamic school.” For me, to “save” our children means to send them to a school which is accepting of all religions and teaches to respect all religions equally. If parents really wanted to “save” their children, they would instil in them a love and firm belief of their faith from a very early age so that when sent to a public school and confronted with children from other faiths and backgrounds (just as in the real world they will be), that child holds onto the religion that they so strongly believe in.

Mezba: "When I go to a doctor all I care is that he is a good and professional doctor. I don't really care if he has a girlfriend, 10 wives or has a beard." Oh I agree absolutely 100%. I once had a teacher who divorced twice in one year and bought a cat. So what?! She knew the subject matter and was professional in her teaching and that’s all that I cared about.

Anonymous: Your comment is repetitive of the first one you left so I'm going to ignore it. I AM happy that you have time in your day to visit my blog twice, although to put me down. Because you're talking about what's very "Islamic," I suppose to you that is. That being said, I try not to judge people on how Islamic they are because I think that's better left to God :)

Faraz: I'm happy to hear that the students at the school you mention are doing so well. Maybe I should have said Toronto/GTA not Ontario. I assumed my regular blog readers would know what I meant. In any case, I know there are some good qualified Islamic school teachers out there, only I haven't met many, and with my blog, I talk about my own personal experiences in life.

I'm not talking about learning environment in this post so I'll ignore that part. When I do a post about the environment, feel free to add your opinions there.

I'm not interested in seeing the stats because I know how Islamic schools (the ones I know about NOT the one you mention) has manipulated the stats to suit their best interests. I'm familiar with the plagiarism, cheating and lying that these schools have used, as well as their grading system which is quite different in comparison to the public system.

"They've heard enough criticism already." - I say go for your dream then. If it's to be a teacher and change the system, what are you waiting for? I'm obviously not going to do it!

Bilqis: Since we can't bet with money, can we bet with food? I'm really hungry! I wonder if the person you mention from Olive Grove is the same person I'm thinking of... I'll email you because I don't want to say anything here - too many crazies.

I bet your stories can't beat the best one I know - my mom SAW this: Islamic school secretary making out in bush with boyfriend. Yes. And this ain't in no tiny schoolhouse, this is from a well-known school in Mississauga!!!

And Bilqis, don't EVER apologize for leaving a long comment. I love reading your thoughts and think you need to start a blog of your own to share with all of us!

Anonymous: Um.. you're not a high school student are you? :S I like my doctor argument too, it makes sense to me... sometimes people look down on the teaching profession because of all the nutcases that get into it. Doctors are always held with the highest respect because they treat our bodies, they help us when we're sick. Well, teachers help us develop our brain. Kinda important no? Just as I wouldn't want no second rate doctor treating my sickness, I wouldn't want no second rate teacher teaching my child.

Haleem: “It matters not an iota if your school is Islamic – but your home environment” – exactly. In my classroom I have students from a wide variety of religions, but when we discuss religion I can see who the ones who have strong faith are. It shows in their character – whether they’re strong in their Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, etc faith, it really shows who the ones are who believe religion to be precious, which I do believe it is.

“I just don't see how just because you went to an Islamic school you are better off” – the very first girl I met who went to an Islamic school was the most corrupt person I knew at the time (in high school). Funny eh? But I’ll leave that story for my post about students.
At 12:49 p.m., 'liya said…

Fatima: Argh! I don't know what happened to my reply to your comment- I didn't forget you! -it was long and now I'm lazy to retype it. I have to run but I'll be back later to tell you about my Muslim friend who went to a private Christian school (here) and was very accepted there.
At 1:51 p.m., Organica said…

liya habibity, I just wanted to let you know the encoding for your blog is a little off. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help!
At 2:01 p.m., Organica said…

Excellent post Liya.

Aa a soon to be teacher, I am horrified at what I've seen in the Islamic school system.

I worked for 3 years as a secretary/coordinator for an Islamic school; I also got offered a teaching job in my freshman year of college (yikes!)

This semester I had to observe 10 hours at an elementary school. I chose the Islamic school and how I regret it so!

In my reports to my professor, I made it clear that I would never work there.

Teachers are unprofessional and only work there, so their 5 kids could go in for free.

The teacher I was observing talked about her students in front of them! She had no classroom management skills and used time-out like it was candy.

Little Muhammad had problems with his motor abilities, she asked me, the student, to do a google search on his condition!

The school principal had never heard of an IEP, yet it seemed there were a bunch of kids with special needs/special education.

I really want to work and make a difference, but seriously, there are limits :)

I would never send my kids to an Islamic school. Let's stop labeling stuff with "Islamic" so we can sleep better at night.

You said it best: "Islamic schools are like babysitting services."

P.S: If you don't care about your children's education, then send them to an Islamic school.
At 3:27 p.m., Anonymous said…

No worries about the Ontario thing, it's just one of my personal pet peeves when anyone from Toronto thinks they can speak for all of Ontario (or worse, all of Canada) when they know little beyond that imperious, gluttonous sprawl known as the GTA.

And every school has plagiarism and manipulation.

Also, I didn't do my high school in Ontario, so I don't know for sure, but aren't there standardized provincial examinations? Quebec has them and the Muslim schools rank competitively in those (near the middle of the pack, not the best but certainly not the worst). If there are standardized provincial examinations, shouldn't it be fairly easy to assess the performance of Muslim schools against the others? I know our provincial exams were generally monitored by Ministry of Education staff, as they are in all schools, so the chances of any misconduct were minimal.
At 4:11 p.m., Fatima said…

mwah it's ok liya.
:)

i shall cry and cry forever and ever :P hehe...i know ...blogger has gone a bit cuckoo :P
At 4:27 p.m., Anonymous said…

I should also apologize for calling Toronto an "imperious, gluttonous sprawl". That's a bit harsh; there are lots of good people there.
At 1:21 a.m., 'liya said…

Organic Muslimah: If you have the time and patience, I’d be so very willing to accept your offer of help!

Organic Muslimah: I know what you mean, I was offered a job while I was still a high school student and it scared me to think that they were that desperate (I mean seriously I had NO practice teaching before that), of course I refused.

The sad thing about that principal (and teachers!) not knowing what an IEP is, is that it really does a disservice to the students. In this area, most parents who send their children to Islamic schools are parents who have trouble speaking English themselves or didn’t grow up in this country – as a result, their children are often ESL students and desperately need that that special attention only an ESL teacher can give – yet these schools don’t offer that kind of specialized attention and these parents don’t know any better.

I totally agree man, “Let's stop labelling stuff with "Islamic" so we can sleep better at night” it’s embarrassing and it gives Islam a bad name for people to find out how some of us view education.

Faraz: Every school does have plagiarism but every school deals with it differently depending on their values. In my board, plagiarism receives a mark on the student’s academic record and usually a suspension. At one of the Islamic schools I’m familiar with, a friend of my family’s son had plagiarized his essay for a speech competition and when another friend (who Googled the topic and found it on the net) told the teacher, she responded by saying something along the lines of ‘that’s okay, I’ll help him change the words around so he won’t have to rewrite his speech and can still win.’ The other friend’s parents told us this. The problem is when you don’t have teachers who value such things as academic honesty (because they were not taught to) then this is what happens and academic honesty is not high on the Islamic schools’ agenda because they have a million other things to worry about.

NOT every school has manipulation. In the public school boards there are extremely tight controls on standardized tests and the way they’re scored. There are no standardized exams but there are tests at the grade 3, 6, and 10 level. In fact, the rules are so tight that when I supervised the grade 10 literacy test, I nearly fainted because it was SO dramatic it was like it was out of a movie and I’m not exaggerating (seriously I couldn’t believe the way it was controlled –it was totally excessive). They aren’t monitored by Ministry of Ed staff but by teachers in the school. My friend who taught at a different Islamic school (not one that I’m familiar with), told me how these tight rules that teachers in public schools are enforced to follow, were constantly broken at the school, thus interfering with the test results. She was so ashamed of the way these tests were given and supervised that she told me she felt like just giving up. Perhaps that’s one reason why she quit? ...I have no idea. To me that’s very serious and if I were her I would have done something about that because I’m 100% against cheating of any kind, it does not teach the students anything and if it’s to make the school “look good” than that’s just being plain dishonest.

Faraz: “imperious, gluttonous sprawl” sounds right to me, and I love it like that lol. If you visit my blog again and see me refer to ‘Ontario’ now you’ll now what I’m referring to :)

Fatima: I wish my family had as many teachers as yours does, it would make my job a whole lot easier!

My parents have caught so many errors on my brothers marked work from his Islamic school (including exams), that they once had to create a petition to get rid of one of the unqualified math teachers at the school. In fact, every time the school sends home a newsletter or parent permission form for a trip, I correct all the errors and assign it a mark as though it were a writing assignment and then give it to my mom to take back to the school to show the principal their poor grammar (and sometimes spelling) – yeah, I’m annoying like that, but I do it to prove a point – hire educated people – or the turnout will NOT be educated kids. I would have assumed all Islamic schools in SA are better than here, I didn’t know you guys had some of the same problems. That’s good that they finally did find a school to suit your cousin, there are some good ones out there with real teachers, but it’s so hard to know…

“regular school and after school went to Madrasah and I think that's the best way. I did that and in a way, both your secular and your islamic education does not get compromised as they are both given full attention on their own time” I think that’s best too. That way you can have the best of both worlds.

Growing up, one of my friends went to a private Christian all-girls school. She went there because at the Islamic high school she tried here, she found she was not accepted – that girls at the I.S. were very catty and judgemental – AND, that the teachers did nothing to stop this kind of behaviour. She was never forced to attend mass but she went a couple of times out of curiosity. Nobody forced her to do anything and she had a great experience at that school.
At 12:32 p.m., Anonymous said…

this is directed to the anonymous comment who needs to get his/her facts straight:

the people you are associated with in life don't make you any more of a better teacher, it's the quality of education and EXPERTISE you bring to the job. saying u wouldn't want a teacher because of his/her descision on how she is going about to get MARRIED (to me) is one of the dumbest excuses i've heard. u can't make excuses to justify a system that doesn't have a proper hiring system just because it falls in line with your religion. that's like saying u don't want a teacher because of his/her race.

u make it seem like all liya does is talk about me to her students. what kind of a school system do u think this is? mentioning in brief that she is getting married does NOT influence them badly in any way, rather i would think it serves as a positive reminder that marriage is what society is built on and that yes, teachers get married too -because a lot don't. let the students be happy for her, isnt it better that they're curious about her plans for marriage rather than saying such things as "i don't ever want to get married" or "i want to go to university and experiment." let's focus on the issue at hand which is unqualified teachers in a school system that needs help --> if u are planning to send your kids to an islamic school, do it for the sake of the students (your children), to help them... if u care.

I dont understand whyyy you still read this blog.
At 12:52 p.m., Anonymous said…

I love how contrite you are Liya!
Lol! I killed it when you told me how you mark those little request forms! hehe! Brilliant!

I applaud your parents for starting the petition for more qualified teachers - after all sitting back and doing nothing makes the matter worse!
At 1:29 p.m., Anonymous said…

Sorry Liya, I didn't see Anonymous's comments before and I want to say something about that too.

He/She states that he/she would prefer a teacher that didn't have a boyfriend rather than accepting a certified teacher. While I'm unclear what having a boyfriend does to ones teaching abilities, I will say that comment appears to be straight out of the Dark Ages. Does this person mean to say that they regard a person's what do you say, sexual preference in their outside life more important than the teaching quality? You've got to be kidding me!

You can judge how how much knowledge, experience, education, ambition and quality a teacher has. You cannot however judge how religious a person is. I think Liya even says, that that is was "God does." Do not attempt to play god, be a better parent, it's your role as a parent to provide your child with qood quality education. If you are living in Canada, you have that available to you. Don't repress your child by viewing education as you would in a third world country - by looking at personal choices in life than looking at education standards. And if you do continue to view education as such, keep those thoughts to yourself because it makes good Muslims look bad and we have enough of that to deal with. We don't need people to think that we don't give a care to education because a lot of us do care, and a lot of us want qualified teachers for our children and couldn't give too hoots whether that child's teacher is married or single. At the end of the day, I want my child to get an education. The best one that he/she can because that is what I think my child deserves.
At 2:37 p.m., Organica said…

This comment has been removed by the author.
At 2:38 p.m., Organica said…

okay, again, at your service

email me

organicmuslimah[at]gmail.com
At 2:44 p.m., 'liya said…

Agent: Thanks V :)
"u can't make excuses to justify a system that doesn't have a proper hiring system just because it falls in line with your religion" - how true. I hate when people make silly excuses and then use 'religion' as the excuse. Why do people want to make religion look so bad? Isn't that horrible?

Fatima: When I come to SA (one day, yes one day) I want to meet your brother in law's sister! As HOD she could probably teach me a lot of things. I have a lot of respect for dept. heads, they work really hard and don't get the recognition they deserve.

Anonymous: "a lot of us want qualified teachers for our children and couldn't give too hoots whether that child's teacher is married or single." - Yeah, when I read the comment by the other anonymous person I almost began to laugh because it was so dumb. Then I felt bad for her because she just makes herself look dumb. Oh well, what can I do.. I guess we all just have different expectations about education and we can see who values it more than others.

You didn't leave a name...

Organic-muslimah: Aww, thank you so much! Can I tell you I love you for your kindness? Expect an email very soon as I've put off fixing my template for far too long because I just didn't know how. Thank you :)
At 9:04 p.m., Anonymous said…

I hope you do not get down by some of the negative criticism that is bound to come from a controversial post and continue this series as promised for part 2 and 3!

PS. I have trouble reading your blog on my workstation Liya, the template kind of screws up the writing from the left.
At 10:27 p.m., 'liya said…

Haleem: I will do as promised though maybe not right away because I was very inspired by my friend's quitting to blog about this. Now I'm inspired by a funny event that happened yesterday so that has to be my next subject! You can bet though, I'll be coming back to parts 2 & 3 soon. Thanks for your support - I appreciate it!

P.S A lot of people seem to be having trouble with my new template (I wish I had never changed it) but, lovely Organic Muslimah has offered to help me fix it which was really nice of her. Now I just need to stop being lazy and email her.
At 10:42 p.m., Anonymous said…

I understand. I sometimes am inspired by one funny incident to post about something and think this is too big so I will make a series and come back to it. But later I am not so inspired on that topic after the first post!
At 4:05 p.m., Organica said…

Ya sweets :P Email me.
At 9:55 p.m., 'liya said…

Haleem: Oh gosh, I'm INSPIRED today - I just found out the most horrible horrible thing today about one of the schools. I'm going to have to post this very soon, I just need to gather my thoughts and calm down a bit :S

Organic-Muslimah: Definitely soon! Thank you :)
At 3:46 p.m., hema said…

the probelm with unqualified teachers working in Islamic schools seems to be universal. my question to you is, if all the "good" teachers are teaching in the public schools, then how do we expect the Islamic education system to get any better?

gosh, my first comment on your blog and i sound so critical. to make up for it, liya is a very pretty name:)

seriously though i don't mean it to sound critical. for one thing, i work in a public school too! but i'm not sure where my future lies and i wouldn't want Islamic schools to be ablolished. parents should have the right to choose.
At 5:46 p.m., 'liya said…

Hema: Aww don't worry you don't sound critical, especially after complimenting me on my name - which really is Aa+liya (trying to be somewhat anonymous)! Welcome to my blog :D

"if all the 'good' teachers are teaching in the public schools, then how do we expect the Islamic education system to get any better?" - well as in the case of my friend who was a qualified teacher (who wanted to teach in an Islamic school), she was turned off by the unprofessionalism in these schools. She was driven away... We can only expect Islamic schools to get better if the admin make the effort themselves. When the admin is fine and happy with unqualified teachers working for them because say you don't have to pay them as much or they don't have very high standards of education, then it's not the teachers fault - it's the people who create these schools and hire the teachers. There's qualified teachers out there who want to teach in Islamic settings (I'm not one) but how can they, if they're pushed away?

I agree that parents should have the right to choose, but I also think parents have to be informed about quality - most parents who send their kids to these schools have no clue.
At 6:11 p.m., hema said…

aaliyah is a pretty name too, in fact on eof my personal favourites:)

"When the admin is fine and happy with unqualified teachers working for them ..."

this is a viscious circle, if you think about it- the admin would prefer qualified staff, but can't find them, so have to resort to unqualified. this then frustrates the qualified staff that do apply. the ideal situation, of course, would be if admin had enough qualified staff who applied in the first place.

you've really hit on something that is bugging me at the moment. i applied to an Islamic school and had to say no, as i knew it would break and sadden me to work in a school like that at this stage in my career. but i've felt guilty about it ever since.

i think state schools here in the UK have their own set of problems though, particularly when it comes to testing adn testing (and testing and testing) the students.

the only alternative i can think of at the moment is grammar schools, because at least you get the quality if you pay for it..
At 7:51 p.m., 'liya said…

Hema: Yay, you're back!

"the admin would prefer qualified staff, but can't find them" but that's not the case here where so many qualified teachers do want to teach in Islamic schools. There's so many to choose from, but then it comes down to what you have to pay a qualified teacher and what you would pay an ordinary person (who calls him/herself a teacher) - and because they don't have much money... it would make sense to me, to start small and make something good before expanding and just giving the schools a bad name. Why not start with one school, make sure all the teachers are certified, then go on and build the rest rather than trying to do too much. It shouldn't be about a race, it should be about quality - you're supposed to be building Islamic schools for quality education but you aren't giving it - so start with one school and give it before creating a whole bunch that don't.

From what I know, schools in the UK are quite different from here. Public schools in Ontario are considered much much much better than private or religious, my friend who went to teach in the UK said it's the opposite there, where private schools are better and public are worse - am I right? I could be confusing this with another country. I have to admit, I don't know much about UK schools so I'm not sure what you mean by grammar schools - is the equivalent of that a regular public high school in Canada?
At 6:08 p.m., hema said…

"Yay, you're back!"

:) organic sent me here via her favourite links. i'm going to link you on to my blog too though, i like to have teaching friends in the blogging world, they can understand a little better when you are having one of "those" days at work.

that's shocking about the pay though. when i went for the interview at the Islamic school, they offered to match my current salary, but it wasn't about the money (is it ever if you decide to go into teaching!)
i know some non muslims who work in Islamic schools just for an easier life (it's apparently easier to teach sweet innocent girls, although i would disagree)

i agree wholeheartedly that all the resources should be pooled together so that one or two decent schools can be built.

i think that a state school in the UK is the same as a public School for you, and a grammar school is a private school. you basically have to pay (sometimes up to £10,000 per annum) to send your child to a grammar school, but they get the results!

i believe in the state education system. that's why i'm working in one! but i'm not sure i would want to send my kids to one. the way things stand, i don't think Islamic schools are necessarily the way to go either. grammar (private) education seems to be the only viable option, expensive as it is.

(i don't have any kids by the way. i'm just thinking lo--ong term. i'm hoping by then, Islamic schools will have got their act together.
At 8:09 p.m., 'liya said…

Hema: Thanks for coming back and explaining. "i agree wholeheartedly that all the resources should be pooled together so that one or two decent schools can be built" - I think that's the way to go about things, start small, make it good, then expand. While I don't believe in seperating children for school based on religion, I can understand why some parents would prefer that.

I know three people who went to go teach in the UK. One loves it there (and is still there), one hated it there, and one just said it was "okay" - I never asked them what type of schools they were teaching in. Now I'm curious to know.

P.S I like having teacher blog friends too - especially in other parts of the world :D
At 8:15 p.m., Anonymous said…

As an Islamic School teacher I find your comments very general, and they hold no substance. How can you make such general comments and think they apply to every school. Any logical and rational person would realize your comments are only hear say. We all know how much people love to exaggerate...eg you stated that you volunteered at ONE Islamic School. So where do you get off stating that all schools are like this. If your search the Health ministry’s public data base you would see how many Islamic Schools in Ontario (including Toronto) are on their healthy lifestyles, and great environment list. There are schools that are suffering, but its because they are new institutions that are still in the early stages. If we turn our back on them how are u solving the problem? A lot of the teachers that come out of teachers collage don't want to work at an Islamic school because of the low pay, well if they can't get the funding to pay teachers the same salary as public school, what do you expect them to do? Also almost all elite private schools higher uncertified teachers...do your research (my pet peeve is when ppl state their opinions and ONE experience as fact :) Don't be so quick to jump to public schools, their flaws are endless, having studied the public education system in depth during my undergrad there is absolutely no way that can be labeled a better alternative. Its sad that with so much funding, and so many years of being established the public schooling system lacks as much as it does in so many areas. Please take this advice, don't turn your back on bettering and improving our Muslim institutions, we can all sit around and complaining about how bad they are but lets come up with solutions and to add to the problem.
At 8:58 p.m., 'liya said…

Razia33: I wish you would have read through ALL the comments so you could find your answers, many of the things you mention have already been addressed and I don't feel like typing everything out again, but you seem angry so I'll try my best to answer you. Also, my post is ONLY on qualified teachers... and you went way off topic but anyways, here goes:

"very general, and they hold no substance" -- I mentioned this is from my own experience.

"Any logical and rational person would realize your comments are only hear say" I worked, know teachers, know principals, and know my father who was on the hiring board for an Islamic school - don't know how much closer to the source you want me to get.

"how much people love to exaggerate" why would I want to exaggerate? What would be my point for doing that?

"ONE Islamic School" - one very very well-known Islamic school. Again, don't know where you teach, but this is THE Islamic school for the area.

"If your search the Health ministry’s public data base you would see how many Islamic Schools in Ontario (including Toronto) are on their healthy lifestyles, and great environment list." That's great - so are many public schools... not sure what you're point is here... I would hope this is a priority for all schools.

"There are schools that are suffering, but its because they are new institutions that are still in the early stages. If we turn our back on them how are u solving the problem?" The problem is you need to start with one school, perfect that, then move on to creating others. It isn't the fact of having so many schools that we should praise, it's the quality of education our students receive - that should be topmost priority - Islamic schools tend to forget this.

"lot of the teachers that come out of teachers collage don't want to work at an Islamic school because of the low pay, well if they can't get the funding to pay teachers the same salary as public school, what do you expect them to do?" - again, perhaps not open so many schools when they can't do this - the children come first, ... again, I mentioned this above.

"Also almost all elite private schools higher uncertified teachers...do your research (my pet peeve is when ppl state their opinions and ONE experience as fact" my pet peeve is when people don't read through the comments above. There are quite a lot. In them, I mention that private schools lack the same qualified teachers are Islamic schools, which are also basically private schools. I've done my research, and quite in-depth I must add. My research included interviewing different private schools teachers/admin in relation to public schools. In this research I included Islamic schools because of my own interest.

"Don't be so quick to jump to public schools, their flaws are endless, having studied the public education system in depth during my undergrad there is absolutely no way that can be labeled a better alternative. Its sad that with so much funding, and so many years of being established the public schooling system lacks as much as it does in so many areas." - Don't know where you live, but this isn't the case in Canada. Anyone can tell you that. I'm not saying public schools are perfect, no school is perfect.

"Please take this advice, don't turn your back on bettering and improving our Muslim institutions, we can all sit around and complaining about how bad they are but lets come up with solutions and to add to the problem." - see above for my solution.

Again, a teacher who is not qualified is not fit to be teaching children. I have a friend, who with no experience and not even an interest in teaching, walked into an Islamic school to do some volunteer work and was hired on the spot. Please tell me there is something wrong with that... In any school, the child's learning comes first. We must send out children to professionals, I can't stress that enough... and that is just something I feel strongly about. You don't have to, I'm not asking you to, but that is just my own opinion. Again, you might want to read the comments above, most of this has been discussed, if not, if you want to email me to discuss any of this feel free to, my email is listed under my profile - just note, I don't ever think an unqualified teacher should be teaching - in any case, in any school. It's called unprofessionalism.
At 9:32 a.m., Anonymous said…

“I'm sorry, but my biggest pet peeve is people who don't regard education as something serious.”

Ditto!

To me, B+ was never good enough and now that I’m a teacher I don't expect any less from my students. I take education very, very seriously. People who teach my children must be educated AND trained. I’m both, yet I’m not confident enough to teach my children because I’m not trained to teach small children. This is how important proper education is to me. It is not a science that you can stir and feed the child. Education is everything from sociology and linguistics to mathematics and biology. When my toddler’s teacher teaches me how to use dolls and teddies to teach him phonics, I’m all ears and put away my Asst. Prof’s garb.

'Liya, when will I be able to subscribe to your blog feed?
At 4:46 p.m., 'liya said…

Suroor: "People who teach my children must be educated AND trained" - exactly!

I also wouldn't feel confident to teach my children (if I had) the basic grades jk-7 because I'm not trained to teach small children either.

My problem is when people don't take education seriously, I see that as a huge problem because it says a lot about the standards a community/group sets for themselves. And like you, I have very high standards of education which is why I find it so disappointing that Islamic schools, instead of trying to better themselves or at least create one good one before expanding, get so out of hand that they don't focus on the reason we have schools in the first place - to get an education - from someone trained to provide one.

I don't have a blog feed yet! Still don't know what it means, but since this is the second time you're asking me, I promise I'll find out and get one :)